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David Stephenson
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Post by David Stephenson » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:11 pm

[quote="krustyFlutes and clarinets can be made of wood or metal or plastic ,they may sound different but the laws of acoustics that apply to them are the same no matter what they are made of.

Krusty[/quote]

A clarinet is controlled very much by the players mouth and the back of their throat, and do vary dramatically between player and player.

Davy.
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Post by David Stephenson » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:17 pm

[quote="krusty wrote

So people keep saying,but nobody has explained why and I think thats because nobody knows,so they are only say so because they think it should.

I bear my former answer back

One of my dear friends and another top pipe maker, does have the very qualifications that were mentioned earlier, he has a top degree of doctorate in music, he thinks along the same lines as myself and says it is a passtime which neither himself or any of the makers who are using their tuning aids, know the proper answers to, if they did then these things would probably not exist.

Davy.
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Post by billh » Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:13 pm

krusty wrote:.... I was pointing out that it has been proved that a small diameter object can be placed in a bore and not have any effect on the frequency spectrum.
This can't be strictly true. Any localized change in the cross sectional area of a bore is likely to alter its frequency spectrum. This is because these changes are changing the tuning of the resonance peaks, and moving peaks relative to one another will strongly affect the strength of the various harmonics: move the peaks in better alignment, and the harmonics get stronger; misalign one or more of them, and the harmonics weaken since the peaks cannot 'support' them as effectively.

Basically a double reed as in the pipes generates a series of all harmonics in nearly equal strength; then these partials are multiplied, as it were, by the resonance curve, and the partials that occur near resonance peaks get amplified and eventually radiated from toneholes and/or the open chanter bell.


Tuning is also affected, as you point out - if a particular strong resonance peak is 'near' one of the reed partials, it can "pull" the whole harmonic series sharp or flat. Note that when playing a sustained note, the partials must be in exact integer ratios, even though the resonance peaks are not - thus moving a single peak moves the whole note, as opposed to causing 'beats'.
tompipes wrote:The simple fact is that any obstruction in a bore has an effect on notes under the obstrucion. Stick a rush into a narrow bore chanter and instant auto-cran.
So people keep saying,but nobody has explained why and I think thats because nobody knows,so they are only say so because they think it should.
We are only talking about wide bore chanters ,a narrower bore is completely different as the relationship of bore diameter to rush diameter is different. But I'm sure if you stick a very light gauge wire up a narrow bore there would be no auto-cran.
Well of course, a vanishingly small rush will have a vanishingly small effect.

I think Tom is misremembering and accidentally has it backwards - a very thin rush in the throat often cures autocran, for instance if the throat has been slightly overbored.
Krusty wrote:
tompipes wrote:Then there's the whole thing of metal rushes not being taperd.
This is where I thought it gets really interesting.The metal rush has a relationship to the volume of the bore ,but it also has a relationship to the pressure inside the bore. As the travelling wave gets reflected back up the bore to become a standing wave,due to the restriction of the narrowing walls the pressure in the bore rises ,to compensate, the actual rush should be thicker at the top,but in conjunction with the conical bore the rush works best when straight.
This is not correct, if I understand you properly. A rush ideally should not be serving as a reflector - and to minimize both reflection and turbulence (due to a sudden 'step' in the bore), it should ideally be tapered at the top. This is particularly true of a rush whose role is primarily to narrow the bore rather than tune individual notes. But even on a regulator, a rush that tapers to a fine point at the top (i.e. nearer the reed) is usually more stable and has a more even effect on the tuning. A rush that ends suddenly is more likely to cause wave reflection and distort the standing wave; a rush with a less abrupt profile just coaxes the nodes of the standing wave a bit and thus alters their tuning less disruptively. Then again, for a small rush wire (say, 1mm or less) the step may be too small to have a noticeable effect - it comes down to the fractional change in cross-sectional area - 1mm is a negligible <1% at the bottom hand but represents a pretty big step (>7%) if it occurs near the throat of a narrow-bore chanter.

In general sudden changes in the bore are unhelpful. They can serve a purpose in drones (where such changes are unavoidable), but the reflection from a discontinuity can explain some weird effects that occur if drone pieces are the 'wrong' length.

I'll add that I mostly agree with Peter's sentiments. IMO anyone actually wishing to converse on this topic ought to at least read Benade and try and get a reasonable grasp of 'standing waves', resonance, and impedance. (You can do it without drowning in equations.)

I don't see a compelling acoustical argument to support a blanket condemnation of rushes. If you are worried about turbulence, then tonehole edge effects are likely to be a bigger factor - rounding the tonehole edges is likely to do more than eliminating the minimal turbulence introduced by a smooth, tapered rush. (A big lumpy or rough rush is another matter - plenty of turbulence-inducing effect there).

At the very least you can trust your ears and aim to stay openminded. Too much hot air expended on this topic already.

Bill

P.S. - if you are signed up for pipemaking lectures at WCSS the acoustics lecture (Wednesday, I think) will cover relevant topics.

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David Stephenson
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Post by David Stephenson » Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:53 am

Billh

You are again correct on all counts here, someone who knows what he is talking about, I must say, all of this can be avoided if you stay clear of tuning aids altogehter, I'm glad that I no longer need them.

And it proves to me that this can be done because one of our top reed guru's had just fully tuned a top makers chanter, he removed the rushes etc and got her in perfect tune, only to have all of his work dashed by the maker putting everything back again.

Davy.
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Post by krusty » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:10 am

This has been an interesting thread to a point and I would have loved to answer some of the points by Billh as I found them to contain some inaccuracy and a lot of conjecture,but I have had enough.

I have heard a few chanters made by the hands of Peter Hunter and they are beautiful chanters,the tone would not be to my liking but that’s a purely personal thing.But as someone already pointed out ,there are many different patterns of chanters that work,and work very well ,so I find it very disappointing when a “pipemaker” who is copying the Hunter pattern find it necessary to constantly try and discredit the work of another pipemaker, in an effort to promote his own work . Any marketing consultant will tell you that is a sure sign that the person lacks confidence in their own work and is also very underhanded seeing the other pipemaker does not visit this forum to defend his work(not that it needs it ).

I now find this thread so offensive and abhorrent that I no longer want to take part in it.


Krusty
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David Stephenson
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Post by David Stephenson » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:05 pm

It is quite clear that you are a person who is wild with what you see as words from who ever, and turn them into anything but what has been said by another, and aimed clearly at this one person.

No where does it say in any of the members postings that another pipe maker is a bad one, nor does it lend itself to such direction.

As far as copying anything goes, it has all been done before, and all others myself included had a route to which things can be portayed as a copy of what has been before.

The aim was to find out who and what is being made without tuning aids, to which you have contributed nothing what could be called as help, but conjecture and maybe this and maybe that, or maybe you have now got something solid in the defence of the subject that will throw light upon the matter.

In the light of such things, it is clear to say that nobody knows how to make this passtime work properly, and a stab in the dark is not the way forward, it seems that this passtime will continue unless subjects like this one arrise from time to time, knowledge is power is a problem solved, in this case we are no nearer to an answer.

Until such an answer is forthcoming then I will steer well clear of this troublesome passtime.

Davy.
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Post by reedman » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:41 pm

I think I agree a bit here with Krusty, with the tone of the Hunter chanter, it is a chanter I find that tends to grate on your nerves after a while, I have heard the P.Hunter chanter played by a fellow piper, I have also heard it being played on the Drone & the Chanters by a master piper Sean Potts, it is far away from what I would call a sweet sounding chanter, it might be well in tune with its self when reeded up, I prefer the Peter Hunter Concert D chanter played by Ronan Brown it is the better sounding of the two P. Hunter chanters, if this is the pattern your chanter is base on then your promoting a decent chanter, if its the other one then I think you will have trouble with promoting that chanter,it has its own personal sound, you either love or hate it, I play a Tony Hebdon concert D chanter at the moment and it is a lovely sounding chanter and needs no tuning aids, I don't mean to course any trouble here guys or cast any personal digs, but if your making pipes, you want your chanters to play well in tune when reeded, but! if your making chanters with not the best of tonal qualities isn't that a bad thing to be doing? I have heard chanters of other makers of the like of Cillian O'briain, Charles Roberts, Andreas Rogge, Tony Hebdon, Dave Williams, and there instuments don't need tuning aids, they are nice sweet sounding chanters so why not copy there chanter design, I suppose what I'm saying is, if your teaching persons to make a chanter of a certain design that is well in tune when reeded, but with less tonal qualities of some other make of chanters or instruments is that a good thing to be doing? this is only an opinion of myself and a couple of fellow piping friends, I have been playing for quite a few years now, I think every piper has his own Idea of what he or she is looking for in an instrument, I have heard some electrifying playing on a average made chanter, this can influence other pipers toward the maker of that instrument, I suppose what I'm saying really is? not everyone likes Champayne! and those people who do not, will not buy it no matter how good the rep is!, but I suppose he can TRY!.
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Post by snoogie » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:06 am

Ok, I think this has gone far enough. I'm going to lock this thread until I discuss with the other moderators how we wish to handle this.

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Post by the plod » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:13 am

I am going to leave this thread locked for now, but reserve the right to re-open it in the future, I believe it is overall a good thread with some very interesting points made by many people, not just Krusty and DS, but also Billh, Tompipes, PJ, etc. Even Reedman's post while a bit snarky is valid - he doesn't care for PH chanters and states why. I can see this thread starting to get a little bit too personal now though - so perhaps we should all step back and take a deep breath.

I am not going to delete anyone's posts, ban them from the forum, or "out" their online personality. I am NOT interested in censorship. I AM interested in healthy and productive conversations about pipes, pipemaking, pipes playing and Irish music. Opinions should be stated in a factual and non-confrontational manner. Be prepared to back up what you say.

I should remind EVERYONE that if you put your work, ideas, and opinions out there (that is, in the forum), expect folks to comment, agree, disagree, even criticize them - it's called conversation Let's just try to keep it civil.

I will take any comments by PM. I am going to be out of town for the next 10 days, so I may not get back to you right away. Until then, the thread is locked so I don't have to worry about it.

:-)

Jeff

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